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Post by paws on Jan 3, 2011 2:16:26 GMT
[ This is the first post that has been moved from the thread Birthday Present. As it turned into a debate i have split the thread. it's a for and against debate as to why we should or shouldn't feed out pets raw food to read Sarah's thread go to the dog section. Paws did not start this discussion. Zoe ( Admin)]Sarah Jane, in my opinion a raw diet would be dangerous to feed around your young son, it's not something I agree with at all. While some seem to do well on it most of the time, how do you know you're not introducing bacteria into your household? For example raw meats contain possible Salmonella, Escherichia coli, and Campylobacter jejuni. How can you be sure that your son would not be ingesting these deadly bacteria? Babies love to put so many things into their mouths, and the bacteria in raw food could be lethal to a young child... seems too risky for me! While there are indeed some unhealthy dry dog foods out there full of fillers and crap, you can still find some amazing alternatives! There are SO many healthy foods out there nowadays that are most definitely comparable to raw (some foods even have freeze dried raw coatings that are safe!) once you get Frisco home you can do lots of research and see what works best for YOU. Good luck!
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Post by micki on Jan 3, 2011 12:22:09 GMT
with all due respect unless you give your child a raw piece of meat to chew on theres no greater risk than when we get out a steak to cook or any meat product for that matter.. i have had 5 children, one still a baby and they have never been ill because of what i feed my dogs. theres more danger of a child picking up a bug elsewhere in my opinion. So i wouldnt be to frightened of feeding raw... ive never seen a dog anything but improve from it. Look at Tricia's Jaz, hes just reached 20yrs old. Id bet my house that he wouldnt have grown to that age fed on dry meal. I worry whats in foods that can sit in a bag for a month and not go off, theres obviously chemicals added somewhere... Convenience feeding suits people not dogs, after all we wouldn't feed our children McDonalds everyday would we. I think we all have different opinions and can choose. Ive fed my dogs over the years on commercial dog foods. Ive been feeding raw for the past 6yrs and to be honest the improvement in the dogs physically and behaviour wise is unbelievable... and my vet always makes a point of agreeing that raw is natural and what they are designed to eat, and how my 11yr old German shepherd looks years younger than she is on it. I think once you get Frisco home look at all alternatives it may be that raw feeding isnt for you but id certainly consider it from the dogs point of view. see what works best for YOU and the DOG.
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Post by laplady on Jan 3, 2011 17:48:26 GMT
I have to agree with Micki, I have bought up 2 children at the same time feeding the Barf diet to my dogs, and never had any problems, and that has now been for just over 20 years
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Post by lynx on Jan 3, 2011 17:54:29 GMT
I'm not sure if it different in other countries but in the UK most raw meat sold for animals has to be passed fit for human consumption. Landywoods where I get my supplies from state:
Landywood Pet Foods produce and distribute high quality pet feeds of a quality fit for human consumption.
Landywood is a family run business striving to produce good quality products at reasonable prices. Our staff all own dogs and cats and have many years experience in feeding a natural diet. Having owned dogs for most of our lives and having owned our current breed in excess of 24 years we have always fed a raw meat and natural biscuit diet to our dogs. We first started producing our own meats in excess of 10 years ago, initially for our own use but then friends started to use our products and we have now grown to the stage where we distribute to most parts of England and Wales, which distribution is still increasing rapidly. All our meats come from local EEC regulated plants and are graded/passed ‘fit for human consumption’.
Others countries may differ to this though, I don't know.
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Post by camberann on Jan 3, 2011 20:03:47 GMT
That is soooo exciting!
Dry foods I recommend (in case you decide to change once his offically your dog!):
Blue Buffalo Merrick Premium Care
Things I try and look for in dry food is:
Made in USA Glucosimine Fish/salmon oil First ingredient is meat/fish
Things I avoid:
Any meat-by-product (this is leftovers of what they don't put in human foods including feet and beaks!) Corn
Non-profits sometimes can't afford to feed dogs the premium foods (they feed what gets donated), but it sounds to me like Frisco has a sensitive stomach, so they probably have him on good food.
I have not looked into how easy/expensive the BARF diet would be in the US I don't know about where you live but we do not have a lot of Butchers to buy meat from and I am not sure if grocery stores will give you the scraps. But my husband and I have discussed trying it.
Can't wait to hear how things go!
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Post by paws on Jan 4, 2011 5:19:27 GMT
With all due respect, I don't know how you handle your raw meat when preparing dinner but I for one do not rub my raw meat all over the floor, carpet, furniture etc. You cannot determine where your dogs mouth goes after consuming raw products but you can wash your hands, countertops and utensils properly after preparing dinner! And unless your kids have never, ever been sick or had diarrhea etc. you cannot say for sure that they haven't been affected by some sort of harmful bacteria. "The handling of meats for human consumption nearly always entails cooking and consumers have become accustomed to careful handling. This care goes by the wayside when our pets are fed raw meats. The contaminating bacterium from the meat is spread around the dogs’ mouth and face as it consumes the meal. Consumers who pet their dogs anytime after a meal may contaminate themselves or their children."Yes, food does play a role, but genetics, physical activity, breed etc. are a huge part too. Seriously. Does your family eat all fresh, home grown meals or do you buy foods like dry fortified cereal, crackers, or juice boxes? Food scientists are skilled enough to produce foods that are created to last short (or sometimes longer!) periods of time.. yes there are preservatives, but for the most part (depending on the food) they're safe.. why do you feed your family perservatives but you don't want to feed your dog something very comparable? Meats fit for human consumption can still contain bacteria, the second air hits the meat there is a risk for bacterial contamination.. doesn't mean we can't eat it, it just means it needs to be COOKED properly to avoid these fatal issues. "The feeding of raw diets to dogs and cats may affect the animals themselves or may have unexpected effects on children, elderly or other human inhabitants of the same household. In a Canadian study published in June 2002, Joffe et al studied the shedding of salmonella organisms in the feces of dogs fed raw diets. Salmonella was isolated from 30% of the raw fed..."Dogs are not by any means designed to eat raw. Modern, domesticated dogs are nothing close to wild wolves.. they're domesticated and have evolved completely differently. Wild wolves are consuming the entire animal right away, they kill when hungry so the meat is fresh and free from bacteria.. they also consume the fur which protects their bodies from the harmful bones.. therefore are not similar to domesticated dogs In our household dogs, bones can tear internal linings and become impacted because they don't have the internal mechanisms to accommodate these sharp foreign objects. The nutritional deficiencies of the BARF diet are also a concern.. unless you're a food scientist you cannot in any way be sure that your dog is consuming the correct nutrients required for a healthy life.. dry foods are scientifically designed to provide your dog with everything they need. In addition, raw provides WAY too much protein, calcium and phosphorous.. which again can be just as detrimental as providing an inadequate amount of other nutrients. I still cannot fathom why we are SO careful handling raw meat around our families when preparing meals etc. but people who feed BARF are okay with leaving it all around their house to contaminate their loved ones. "Each year, food-borne pathogens like Salmonella, Campylobacter, E-Coli, Shigella, and Listeria cause 76 million illnesses and 5,000 human deaths. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), E-coli O157:H7 kills an estimated 60 people nationwide every year and sickens another 73,000."Jessica mentioned some wonderful brands of food. To add to that list, Taste of the Wild is wonderful (and is higher in protein if that's something you're looking for), as is Nature's Variety, Natural Balance and Holistic Select.. and if you're lucky enough to live near a Pet Valu, Performatrin is an excellent, affordable holistic food Merricks does have some fun flavours though, lol. As long as the food is free of by products and extra crap, then it's fine. If one cannot afford a "holistic" food, there are GOOD quality foods made with corn etc. Anywho, I really feel like nutrition is extremely important, with animals and people, and it's not something to mess around with. I'm not trying to stop you BARFers from doing what you're doing but I really feel like you need to give people OPTIONS and let people decide for themselves what is right.. there is never ONE right way to do things, there are many wonderful choices and each person is entitled to figure out what works for them Raw is a personal choice, it's gaining popularity now, but it doesn't make it the only right choice. Happy Birthday Sarah Jane! Have a super fantastic day with Frisco! SOURCE: webcanine.com/2007/barf-diet/
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Post by sarberry on Jan 4, 2011 8:29:49 GMT
I've read what everyone wrote...and the one thing I know is what food they are currently feeding him. It's somewhat of a generic brand. However, the girl at the sanctuary said she looks at the ingrediants..not the name on the bag. I believe, that once Frisco is here ..safe and sound and living life...I'm going to gradually introduce him to a food that is more holistic. I doubt I'd go raw ...simply because I cannot afford the diet..and I'm not sure how Frisco would do with it. He's never had a diet even remotely like that. He likes baked chicken as far as I've been told. I do understand the argument, on both sides. When it comes to our animals we have strong opinions and make decisions as to what we feel will be the best for the animal. With what I'd like to do in my life, I'll have to know all about the BARF diet. I don't know how I feel about feeding Frisco raw food primarily. I, personally, haven't looked into the exact specs of what I'd have to do...there are a number of great foods on the market.......and a ton of pet stores...our big pet store is called PetSmart. I don't want to keep feeding him what they've been feeding him...but, that's what they feed all the dogs. I would like to take a moment and complain about "them." First off...they're asking for twice the money in gas it costs to get from their place to ours..and they pretty much demanded that I get this huge bag of food...because I dare to mention that I 'may,' be able to get it. She compalined about how long she's got to keep Frisco...because I cannot take him right away....well, it's my birthday...so I say let them be aggresive flakes who don't know any better. My aim and all objects of my acts are for Frisco..not them. Having said that...I need to say that Frisco is a very special dog...I wouldn't want to care for him so much if I didn't in many ways relate to him and his personality and even feel that, to a large degree, I understand his nature in so far as I know what it is to be shy...and sort of fall back and just want to hide from strangers. Frisco has a lot of growing to do....emotionally... I believe we'll be good for him...and learn what foods are best for HIM.....and that he'll be great for us.
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Post by laplady on Jan 4, 2011 8:42:50 GMT
Cathy I understand where your coming from and respected your views, but I think if you reread the posts you will find that it is stated on each one that it is up to the individual as to how and what they feed their pet on.
I don't think a dogs internal organs/system has changed so that they cannot process raw food due to them being domesticated, there are many domesticated dogs all over the world, especially those working dogs that are fed a raw diet .
Another point I do not leave the food all over the house, and its seems that you are suggesting that because we feed the BARF diet we do not care about the health and safety of our families which feel rather aggrieved at this suggestion.
perhaps you are trying to push your opinion as the only way to go.
Again its only my opinion based on over 20years of feeding the BARF diet, and owners should choose what they feed, based on their time, budget, and personal preference
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Post by micki on Jan 4, 2011 8:45:11 GMT
good luck with whatever you decide Sarah.. Paws we wont agree on this, dogs can be fed outside you know. Also our kitchen is bleached about 100 times a day. ask anyone who's been here. ;D Also children are at risk of salmonella from pet mice and many small animals, as well as being exposed to bacteria is a dog licks them. So really eating meat isnt an issue. If it was im sure my vet wouldve pointed that out to me knowing i have children. Saying what you're saying could imply i risk my Children and that i take offence at. Although im aware it probably wasnt your intention. However i will continue feeding my dogs the way they have been and they will continue to have "small pets" whatever the risk. I think all you need to do is practice common sense and good house keeping.
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Post by micki on Jan 4, 2011 8:48:23 GMT
Paws can i just point out dogs ARE DESIGNED TO EAT RAW. Also the food i feed is FRESH. Many Northern breeds can't stomach commercial dog foods.
Oh and one more point. A dog will bury a bone and dig it up at a later date to eat. admittedly not very nice in our opinion but dogs have a far better constitution than Humans and have different gut bacteria than we do.
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Post by zoe on Jan 4, 2011 22:27:07 GMT
With all due respect, I don't know how you handle your raw meat when preparing dinner but I for one do not rub my raw meat all over the floor, carpet, furniture etc. You cannot determine where your dogs mouth goes after consuming raw products but you can wash your hands, countertops and utensils properly after preparing dinner! And unless your kids have never, ever been sick or had diarrhea etc. you cannot say for sure that they haven't been affected by some sort of harmful bacteria. Cathy...our dogs eat once a day out of bowls in the kitchen! we do not have meat stroon across MY floor, carpets or furniture. i would have a heart attack. i normally stay away from debates. i just keep my eye on them. but i can assure you that my children and my pets are perfectly safe from bacteria. and i bleach my floors constantly throughout the day. not because i feed my dogs raw meat but because i have a thing for bleach!!! yes my children and i have had tummy bugs...but these have been passed through other humans.
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Post by paws on Jan 4, 2011 22:47:58 GMT
I'm sorry if you think that's what I was saying, but if you read carefully I was saying that your dog transfers the bacteria throughout your house.. which isn't that hard to comprehend. Unfortunately you can't say you're perfectly safe.. you have zero control over where the raw meat residue is transfered! Dogs are constantly picking up toys, licking things, rubbing their faces on furniture etc. etc. UNLESS they live strictly outside. I'm sure you wash your hands after preparing meals made with raw meat, yes? and you wouldn't go around touching things around your house that could harm people I would hope. Bleach is a whole other can of worms lol. I'm not trying to stop anyone from anything, but I want other people to be able to make an informed decision by themselves.. I also want to make it okay for everyone to share their opinions! Practicing safe hygiene is SO important and can potentially be life saving; new people who would like to try this diet NEED to know about bacterial issues in order to keep themselves and their families safe
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Post by micki on Jan 4, 2011 23:09:32 GMT
sorry Paws but your argument holds no water.. Bacteria risk comes from the dog itself more than its food. A dog licks its backside, more risk of bacteria there than from the meat dont you think? So wherever theres dogs the bacteria "risk" is the same. Having cats carries the same risks if not more... Children having small pets carries risks... the list goes on... Dogs toys on the floor carries risks... thank Heavens we dont have dogs toys strewn about. With all these risks im amazed any child reaches adulthood. Anyway the thread seems to have gone way off subject. Sorry Sarah.
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Post by paws on Jan 4, 2011 23:15:02 GMT
Of course there's a kazillion risks in this world and we all consciously make decisions every single day to choose the best options with the least risk (for the most part). Why would we want to increase our risks? Isn't the goal always to protect ourselves and loved ones when we have the chance?
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Post by camberann on Jan 4, 2011 23:15:43 GMT
Look at Tricia's Jaz, hes just reached 20yrs old. Id bet my house that he wouldn't have grown to that age fed on dry meal. quote] My bosses Golden Retriever lived to be 16 years old and probably would've lived to be 20 had he not been ran over by a customer. He was feed a dry food diet plus whatever he decided looked good to eat out of the garbage (paper towel, paper plates, ant trap ect.). One time when I was dog sitting he was walking funny and when I lifted his tail there was a piece of tape hanging out of his butt it was about 6 ft long by the time I pulled the whole thing out. Not sure what made him live that long of a life, but I am pretty sure it had nothing to do with his diet.
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